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Good: An item in used but good condition. May have minor damage to jewel case including scuffs or cracks, ... Read moreabout the condition
|Player:||Honus Wagner||Era:||Pre-WWII (Pre-1942)|
|Card Manufacturer:||Good Berners & Lant||Year:||c.1890|
|Country of Manufacture:||United States||Product:||Single|
|Brand:||c.1890 Carte de Visite Early Baseball card||Card Attributes:||Rookie|
|Grade:||Ungraded||League:||Allegheny County League Pittsburgh Pennslyvania|
|Certification Number:||Not yet Given||Team:||St.Lukes|
|Professional Grader:||Not yet graded|
There are. [ No known , Teenage images of Honus Wagner that exist today ]..until ,..what appears,.. maybe now !
Only a 10 year old..and then jumping to 21 years old..and that's a ( Big gap..in facial changes.)
So..Is this the " Pirate Teen ,..Kings Treasure"..?
Or is this some Other..?
Young remarkable Honus Wagner look alike, and their,.. Old time ball players ( cdv Baseball card ? )
Only 21 st Century testing will ( Reveal more & Confirm the truth.)
I have had to research,edit and revise this ongoing long listing many, many times as i needed to make corrections, and as i thought of any related important information,this week. It kept getting longer and longer,.more like a Blog.
As,.I'm not a English teacher.
And,I really didn't expect to write a short BOOK but i ended up doin so, as this is ,so if you don't want to read a Book.
Just look at and compare the photos..and be your own facial detective.
The old saying of, "You cant judge a book by its cover.".." Well,..You can't judge this card by my, Book either " !
[ An Extraordinary claim, requires even more, Extraordinary evidence..! ]..
And there is ,..No way ,..to provide this in a Short version.
So,..this is..Not , a very Short, Walmart Like ,Ebay - Generic , typical description,as you are use to I'm sure.
••• I did it on my tablet,so when I thought of something I just added it, •••
just like on a long, "Chalkboard scientific Math formula" searching for the answers & Truth..!
For those of you who love a Mystery,..and like to solve Puzzles..I have let you all in,.. on mine..!
So have,fun..and let me know,..if you can solve it,until the actual tests are done.
•••• The price was just raised, and it will Not...!.,
.be lowered as even more facts keep coming , in every day,as the research is ongoing.,..••••••
Just to give you an example how rare this Carte de Visite Baseball Card is...
There are over ( 30,000 Carte de Viste photos ) on eBay right now..
And not of of them have a [ Baseball player ]..on them..or anyone wearing a [ Big Sporting [ *Striped ] Bow tie.]
There are also over ( 2,300 Honus Wagner related items ) on eBay as well.
••• I recently ,..Stopped calling it just a cdv photo,..
when in fact..it appears to have been used as, Honus Wagner's ( Very 1st Early Baseball Card )
Also,because ( Any early small old cdv,s ) that had any ,
Baseball players on them were considered to be the very fist Baseball cards •••
The plan is both Plain & Simple,the card has to have first several , Objective & Scientific ,
1. [ Biometric Facial comparison computer tests ] done.
2. Then the typical,Baseball card sent out, [ Authentication & Encapsulation ]
Both these have never been done on any card before I know of,...this is a first..!
•••••• If I am right,..,..Could this be ... a ..Priceless .." Lost Honus Wagner card."..?
,that has finally now been found 123 years later •••••
••••• literally making it, like the [ "Prince"....of all Baseball cards...] •••••
•••• Before he later became the [ "The King" of all Baseball cards ] ••••
[ Would that make this his 1st Baseball card even more valuable than all others....? ]
Seriously,what are the odds you or I could go ( Hunt down or find anywhere on the Planet )
any early c.1890 cdv Baseball card. ..of anyone that even looks like it could be one of a, Young Rookie of..Honus Wagner.?
Because,..His unique face...and strong features , is just that..Very Unique..as some people are...!
If you, Reserve your opinion,and take the needed time to read all or , or part of the following book like description,
you will then be able to,
have a much better understanding of exactly what this Unique Baseball Rare card artifact is.
And then,.you will be able to form at least a more informed, & ( Intelligent,opinion.) about it.
•••••• Look,if you don't like the way I wrote ,this or how Very long it all is..about these details ,facts,information, etc..
••••••• Please, remember its..."Not About Me"...only the ( Card ) •••••••
••••••• I am a Licensed Pa. Auctioneer,and ephemera Researcher,..i have, No criminal background ••••••
So,..It is Absolutely, Not made by me or anyone to deceive ,or photo shopped, or faked or tampered with in any way..!..
It is Guaranteed to be a 100% Real,..! Antique Photo c.1890 Carte de Visite Baseball card ,..!
Only the much larger B& W image,was made to be enlarged & enhanced & slightly colorized,
Not the actual Original card.
••••• The Only,issue is ,..not if it is Real..? But is it really him...? •••••
Even though all the dots keep on connecting....that it is him. Still , Clearly this card has to a go through a completely
different new kind of, Evaulation.
• And, Scientific direction of various, Biometric facial testing, etc. for positive °°° [ 100% Confirmation..! ] °°°•
•That's ,The key..Here..it is Not the regular Normal,course..and.°°° [ Not card.. Authentication.! ] °°° That this card requires,..
... Involving,old & new ink dot matrix printing comparisons,,card paper age.,grading,and microscopic evaluations, etc.
Another words,this "Honus Wagner Prince" has to have his Royal Bloodline confirmed..
... in order to be able to claim the "Kings Crown".
Its been said a picture is worth a 1000 words. However, in this case 1000 words are needed to describe this picture.
This small "4 X 2 1/2 " inch cdv Baseball card is one that clearly seems to now help define ,
The very essence of what , Baseball card collecting was and what it is today.
Since, there exist a very Real & Big void, in the , current Mindset of today's collectors abroad ,
In simply just understanding the Old ways of life that existed back then, in those very different
And much harder times of recorded history & availability of early Baseball cards & collecting fans & culture ,
Compared to, what is now ( sometimes a easily misguided group of opinions ) on the internet by their ,
Now Modern 21 st Century, lifestyles of a mostly motivated Mindset of, ( Only Money matters )
And , Self interest ruled & themed Baseball card collecting ,dealers, people & culture.
So, not only, have the times of , Early card collecting culture radically changed,but the ways in which,
Baseball cards and collectors are now collecting them especially as it realates to the Reasons, ( WHY..? ) they are even being collected.
It was among those, Early Old 19th Century Baseball card collecting fans, that they based their interest and focus on just the simple,
( Love of the game ) and the ( Actual person ) on them and not at all was it a hobby just based on ,
Money & Price guides,or card conditions.,and encapsulation.
And what only a card or player is worth...!
Because, Price guides,Card dealers, Graded cards,Fake cards,Con artist dealers,Glued cards,Trimmed cards ,Cut cards,Bogus cards,collecting sets, and even Credit cards
Did NOT,,yet even exist in the1890,s when there was just the,.[ Pure & Simple fun of Baseball card collecting ]
You heard of the saying,"If its to Good or sounds to Good be true,there must be something Wrong..?"
We'll I'm here to tell you that, Old saying, is only sometimes right, just ask anyone who ever found,
a Real Treasure..and they will all tell you, Good things actually do happen,..so keep looking, and ignore all those, Negative,Pessimistic, Jealous, and "boring" people....while its still Important to be Cautious,,its even more Important,
to ,..Dream and have Faith & Hope.,You too will find some kind of , Real Treasure ,..someday.
Thanks, for understanding,being patient, & looking ,
Now,..Over, [ 4000 ] Honus Wagner fans that have now checked him out...!
Note: Please read the last dozen suggested, terms at the end of this listing, including a
*Check placed in a ( Safe escrow hold ) ,either by a independent 3rd party,or the Bank ,etc.
Until it is formally 100% Confirmed & Authenticated by the buyer ,
by whatever experts or testing etc. they decide to use.
This should be clearly understood,That,..There are Absolutely, No internet Scams here ,or deception,etc.
During, the sale of this Baseball Card CDV artifact...read the whole listing,
so you will understand the..No problems,.Guarantee better...so just relax..and enjoy my research.
And, this is even in addition to the, ( Ebay 14 day money back Guarantee ..! i also added to it..! )
If you are not satisfied, your check or money will then be returned.
Hey, with this c.1890 card its going to be either, a Honus Wagner,
( " Three, strikes and your Out ..! " ) or ( " Its a Grandslam Homerun.. ! " )
As ,Science and objective testing results must have the final word,and not fact less & baseless opinions.
Like Yogi Berra,once said: "It Ain't over till its over". ..so relax..this game is only starting !
Hey, With the recent serious prosecution & Fraud case of a [ Mint Honus Wagner cut card ] on Google news..
I understand any fears or concerns,of any serious buyers,of this card.
When I was a teen ,I too played & loved little league Baseball, but way back then in 1890 things were very different,
Young teen Honus,was already considered a man,in those hard times & culture.
Since he had already worked in the Pa.Coal mines for 4 years with his father since he was 12.
So,to him he considered himself to be already, a real paid Ballplayer,even if it was at the age of 16
If you,Google or Bing some excellent articles with photos..as to why CDV..photos ,
Key words: •••• ( Carte de Visite and Baseball cards ) ••••, these smaller card like photos,
were considered to be all the Father's of early Baseball cards..providing they showed some players,
and even the ( Very Idea ), of modern Baseball card collecting came from them.
Those small 19 th century, [ Cart de Visite ] photos were the very ( First Baseball cards ) ,
..even if they didn't. advertise any products like ,Tobacco,
they still all advertised the, Photographers like this one does , and were made in some quantity.
Its just that fewer are ever found, and I will explain the reasons why later.
You will need some knowledge of early ephemeral & photographic collectibles to better understand this.
As how it all relates to the history of all Baseball Cards.
And, of those 1st ones, they were all certainly collected & traded,& swapped ,.
in just the same way as all Baseball cards are today..
Only they were kept in ( Old photo albums ) , just like this one was where it was found ...!
And there were very few if any to be found back then,so a collection may have literally consisted of only a few Cards.
[ "The Holy Smokes Honus Wagner card" ] is the name I gave it..!
••••••• And you guys are the first ones to EVER see it, in public. .••••
Being a ( Fresh to the EBay Market Carte de Visite Baseball card )....so it is not yet fully researched..and I'm learning,
Literally,more than I ever expected..and it just keeps sounding better all the time,as research continues.
All those old albums,.like the one this was found in,.
.were used just like modern Baseball card plastic binders are all still used today.
•••It appears this is the earliest 1st card of his, and is a Very exciting.
,.. and Valuable Baseball Card to say the least,..An..Amazing,.21 st Century discovery..! •••
Those very few that have seen and held it in their hands were in Shock..!..and didn't know what to say...?
Except,they too all thought it is him, only younger.,and thought it was very cool..!
The questions are not that, is it a real c.1890 cdv., ? ( But is it really him..? )
Because, No one has have ever seen him as a teenager before....!..so it takes awhile,
to compare his features on other known cards & images to form any opinion.
And, as with anything brand new, everyone has ,tons of questions,
and I have tried to answer most of them with this,again.. ( Very long Book like ebay description and listing below )
The card, also represents a real Mystery, as now it seems, Honus Wagner's life and Famous T 206 Baseball cards history ,
has somehow by this new discovery has made a....complete...
••••••• ( Full Circle in Time ) ••••••
As, if like a buried Treasure,,waiting to be found..!
•••• And, may soon represent the first time any,Baseball card photo was ever subject to,
•••• 21st Century Scientific Bio-metric & Facial recognition testing etc.
•••• Used, to Authenticate & Confirm any, 19th Century baseball card or one of Honus Wagner.
However,there was a Honus Wagner T 206 just tested on the "Treasure Detectives" TV show that turned out to be a Fake..!
But they used different kinds of testing that this one does not need,
I would GLADLY,let them have it for ANY kind of tests performed....
Perhaps you can email them as I have to take this one too..!..if they get more emails perhaps they will take it..?
Note ::::: That ( Perfect Fresh looking Haircut ) he has on this c.1890 card...as a matter of fact,
Young Honus ,was trained as a Barber as a vocation , before his Baseball profession,
by his older brother ..Charles an established Barber ,in Mansfield,Pa.
So ,he would have,Absolutely,. wanted a [ *Perfect Haircut *] , for this his very 1st Baseball card image.
* Amazingly, it was found and purchased for $5. at a Local Pa. Flea market , while looking through an old photo album, *
It was just by chance i spotted him .
There are several unique early baseball collectible & Honus Wagner card facts that connect the dots....
With this single image..on this card.
Like a puzzle waiting for the..Last Piece..!..
To finally see the Whole Picture..
•••••••• Since the, 1909-11 Tobacco T 206 Honus Wagner is considered to be ,
•••••••• ( The King of all Baseball cards.).•••••••
This New & One of a kind ,Baseball card discovery,
Could easily be considered like the.."Prince"...before he became.. "The King"
Because,everything that the King is, or was or will ever be...started with what this,
( Honus Wagner Prince card , represents.)
Making it the Only clear choice as a [ Perfect Companion ] for anyone who already owns "The King".
The Only problem.... is "This Prince " is yet ....to be.... Crowned..!..Whenever, the tests are preformed.
And once that testing has been officially done..and he is better understood,.sooner or later..!
I suspect he too, will gain respect quickly, to reach even higher record prices..?
Who knows,.perhaps this "Prince card" may even surpass the King, someday..?..
Taking back the "Crown Jewel title"...in the Baseball card Kingdom..!
Hey ,you can make a movie...about this card..!
I don't think I am overstating this.. ( "The Holy Smokes Wagner Card " ) .. maybe is..
"The only known one"...vs. ..as many as 50 to 75 or some say 100 supposedly, that are known to exist of The,T 206.
"The King...well then..it appears ,..Clearly,,...This new card has No equal..!..Providing it gets Confirmed,..?
Concerning the value of all these known cards, as with all,
Antiques & Collectibles Values, "Condition seems to also be King"
The value of this card..then goes far beyond..Condition...it is Where all the others began.
Borrowing a line from the Indiana Jones movie..Raiders of the Lost Ark..
When he was about to blow up "The Ark".
" Indiana, you and I are just going through history.. This is History..!"
" The Holy Smokes Wagner card " has his whole early life and Baseball cards ( History ) linked directly to it.
There has been a real unseen,missing piece of his life's history as a teenager,
when he first started playing Baseball,
With this possible first ever,clear representation,of the actual young Baseball Heart & Soul ,
of the Christian, Honus Wagner.
And that makes it Priceless...!
Look , No way..do I disrespect the,"King",or his ability to ( Rule over all other Baseball cards..! )
Its just how he became that,.. King, is even a much bigger story, than he is , or the heights that card keeps climbing to.
Besides, This new discovery once confirmed will enhance & increase the, Value of all Honus Wagner cards & collectibles.
••••••••• The T -206 Honus Wagner card is also considered to be the ( "* Holy Grail * of Baseball cards" ) •••••••
So it is this, new "Holy Smokes Prince ,"..also then represents ..
(((( * Why * ..just by his sole actions, he in fact , became literally. ,
a genuine Good & Holy, ball player example to us all..! )))
What seems to have been forgotten,perhaps because of the ,
Huge record prices that "The King " keeps bringing in at auctions.
Even in the poorest conditions..the supply of them..far outweighs the demand.
Behind all that,there is this just a simple reason Why..?
And now a part of Baseballs, important history of just how & why it became so Rare..!
In one word, the.. Bigger reason ( Why ?) , he and the Card..continues on in both his
Fame, Fortune & Rule over the entire, Baseball card collectible, Kingdom.
That's, because, in is his early simple recorded personal life history,there was just one simple action,
of Faith and caring.,that made this possible.
Love one another..Love your neighbor as your self..God is love..Those that love him obey him..
So..If you really believe that..then sometimes you just can't compromise,your beliefs..for a buck !
And, this action,he made,.is one of... Fact and not Myth ,Which is now become a , Legend bigger than the man himself..
That then made the T206 card become so Rare & Valuable..
Yes,it was that simple act of of saying "No" to Cigarette Tobacco use, for kids sake, that somehow has been easily forgotten,and those reasons, still debated among collectors, years later.
However,..The Young Honus Wagner's Faith, Church & Simple Christian caring character
background is a matter of clear fact,
And , Not one of speculation.
So what is there to debate..? I think its because there are a lot of unbelievers ,who just don't get it..!
You just can't be that kind of person,he was unless you,were like that off the Ball field ,as well.
Before ,The Honus Wagner card , became ( The King of all Baseball cards )
He himself, was a follower & servant of .. [ The King of the Universe ]....!
Who gave him not only the natural skilled gift to play Baseball well, but also the Heart and Conviction,
not to lead kids down the, Wrong path in Smoking.
And,we still need more leaders like him and real hero examples today...more than ever!
So it is..
This c.1890 image of him may give us all a personal and real glimpse into his early,
St. Lukes church team days & his Christian ethics exhibiting the character of his very good soul .
He was just one young man of faith, who was living alongside his other,
fellow Christian Pilgrim brothers in a 19 th century local Pa. church community.
Made up Of both, countless, European immigrants of ,Catholics & Protestants, all living together.
..who then during a Ballgame, all had only had 4 things in common.
The Love for ,..God , Family, The respect for each other,..America & Baseball.
By his actions, he was sharing some very, Strong, Religious & Holy convictions with them,
mainly the ( Abstinence of smoking, )..while he first played for St.Lukes team.. in 1890.
Which later, still carried into his entire Baseball playing new career, setting a "One of a kind",
Good example in Baseball's early card history...in 1909-11.
And it was there he made his mark, among the many, Other kinds of ethnic backgrounds ,
of all those very different ball players from everywhere,in the United states,
who were present and all had a VERY different kinds of lifestyles then young , Christian Honus did.
Especially , among those even younger and more vulnerable kids & fans.
He sincerely & clearly wished,
only good things, for them all.
Once again,..Specifically,..( Not..!.. to encourage them in any way ) into being forced into ( Smoking sinful Cigarettes )
in order to buy any of his Baseball card images
which were then later inserted into the backs of some very small Tobacco cigarette packs.
Revealing his true personal religious character,by just making a clear committed ethical & caring decision,
that even ,brother St.Luke the Physician himself , would have been very proud of.
Just by him ( Strongly Refusing the, Big Tobacco companies ) unapproved desire ,
to what was still back then and only during those uninformed days, way different than today.
As, ..Smoking back then was considered a,.. Bad,.. ( Vice & Sinful behavior ) ,
and it was not yet a well known serious '"Cancer or health issue...that it is today."
[ So by him ,..Turning, Cigarette Tobacco smoke, into a "Holy smoke" decision. ]
Hence the name,.."The Holy smokes Wagner card".
That single action demonstrated to us that , Honus Wagner was much more than just a ,
Great baseball player,but an a even Greater caring person.
And that was Not the first time he turned down MONEY,..for something he loved more,..People.
He also later ( Refused a offer of a much Bigger contract for Bigger bucks,) to leave and go play for another team,
but turned it down quickly, just because he was loyal to his local friends and local Pittsburgh baseball team.
Baseball card collectors, around the Globe, still talk about, him being a Good example over a 100 years later , today.
If you ,Only look at this image of him from just that church perspective,.
as a very good , Lutheran young man..its easy to see its him...as he actually looks the part.
And what are the odds of that..! For,..Someone else ..being and fitting that part and that just by chance,
looks like him too.?
This first Baseball image of him seems to fit that kind of a ( Christian pure characters personality as well.)
The young boy Honus went to the same • Lutheran Church and school • until he was 12..in the 6th grade.
He then started work immediately in the Hell hole, safety last,..Pa.Coal mines..
and then started to learn how to become a barber.
While, Earning only a few bucks.,but back then,was worth a lot more,and went a long way
•••• What is now considered very telling and is a very very accurate new test is that ,
******* [ The Ears & the Unique Shape of someones Ears ] *******
Are a unique way of identifying someone,with a almost 100 % success rate.
And using the top part called the ,Helix of the ear..and using a light test.
This test is now considered to be the very next best thing,
in identifying someone identity next to their..[ Actual fingerprints.]
For it works for, anyone's identification on the entire ( Planet Earth.)
So , while his left ear is not showing at all ,we still have a very good & clear image of his ,
( Right ear.)..shape which always hugged his head..and did not stick out like that bigger ( Left ear )..did.
For later photo comparison.
This specific testing analysis once it has been done,
should then prove to be one of the ,
( Single most important fool proof testing ways ) of telling that this
Rare c.1890 CDV is in fact one of Honus Wagner.
Allowing for some age ,etc.
As far as I can tell and in my opinion it at least appears to be a similar shape right ear.
However,the need for additional, Biometric facial testing should be submitted for evaluation,
to a larger Honus Wagner photo database,
These 2 kinds of tests should be sufficient and then act as the ( Final word on its Authentication/Confirmation.)
Including written documents..of the results..!
These tests will then prove,.his identity.,...Regardless what I or others think.
Not based on any opinions but simple, Science & the facts.
Once this image is finally submitted,to those who are then able to do it.
So,..Until then,.. you and i on this jury are still out on this teen Honus..?
Even though my vote..still holds..that it is him.
I'm hoping someone can submit or preform those and other tests right off the,
Very CLEAR blown up enhanced images of the Original CDV that I created .
It was done..By,...Only enhancing the Original..!
Not photo shopping it or changing it..in any way.
••••• Right at HOME..••••••• .on those kinds of forensic..& specific computer...programs wherever they can be found ?
This is something I don't know how to do ,or else I would have already.
To either Clearly, 100% Confirm or Deny his identity..?
So far,no one has emailed me with their results..for whatever reasons.?
And if they have done tests..they are not saying anything..?
It is a absolute fact of early 1890,s Baseball style clothing designs ,that some players wore, some kind of,
••••••••• It could have been a ( Striped uniform ) or ( Striped Shirt ) or ( Striped hat ) ••••••••
••••••••• Or in this ,early teen Image of Honus Wagner he is Clearly & Proudly wearing a ( "Big Striped Bow tie" ) •••••••
In fact the...Allegheny County League...Colors were ... [ "Blue & White Stripes"..! ]
So if that were a color photo..would those stripes on that,.. Big bow tie..be Blue..?
Well it wasn't plain..or had polka dots..but has Stripes...!
Young Honus Wagner...( played on 5 early Baseball teams )..it has been recorded ..!
If you Google or Bing.."1890 Base ball player " etc. * [images ] * you will see many other early Baseball player
photo examples of them all wearing some type of "Striped clothing' and sometimes only just one of them.
You will be able to see..then that the "Stripes" pattern..were one of simplest yet defining,
Identifying Signature Marks of clothing designs they wore to show everyone they were, Proud to be Baseball players.
••••••••••••• So just as, a ( Zebra has Stripes )...The young Honus Wagner the Baseball player has , ( Stripes ) too ! •••••••••••
$$$ • This card also represents the first time the Young Rookie Honus Wagner, was a PAID Baseball player • $$$
$$$$$ • as the St.Luke's church paid him $3 to $5. Per Game. • $$$$$
Note: His older, Early Baseball player brother Al "Butts Wagner " who played on the same St Luke's c.1890,s church team.,
• Was wearing the exact same kind of, ( Big striped Bow tie ) ..!..I'm not kidding..!
• As well,.. in that Old photo album on another matching CDV photo that too was inserted in the same album •
• Where this ( Young Teen Rookie Honus photo Baseball card ) appears to be ,Amazingly, found in .•
Its just plain crazy , I did not know better at the time when I saw him or ,
else I would have bought his older brothers "Al" Baseball card too.!
Hey the album,.could have belonged to the Wagner,s relation,from Lancaster..when he visited there?
* All the other photos, etc. used in this listing are for, Research & comparison purposes Only..and are not for sale.*
* Once again,.This description is going to read like a book,and is very,.LENGTHY...!
....so if you have time read on....
or else just go back and compare all his photos.*
••••••• If you are a bit surprised at this new image of him that's normal ••••••
••••••• Since every single known photo of him at various ages & poses & angles..ALL look different ••••
••••••• No teen photos of him exist to compare this one to ••••
••••••• There is a 11 year Gap from 10 years old to 21 years old in his photo history •••••
••••••••• ( c.1890 Carte de Visite photo..) =a CDV..that was used as his very 1st Baseball card •••••
•••••••••• CDV, Photo's were all made starting in the 1850,s through the early 1900,s. ••••••••
If you do some research you will see that in comparison ,
The early 1860,s thru 1880,s CDV photos mostly all had
...much smaller photographers names and Logos ,
etc. printed on the backs of them.
It was not until the 1890,s that the designs and print all got Much Larger using and..
..filling up most of the backspace..of the photos..for advertisements and have more ornate artwork.
Not only just selling the photographers name & address but products too.
As this one has..with, The winged Angel...holding the camera..among..flowing vines.
It has the Larger.."2 1/2" Photographers artwork & names on the back of it.
Taking most of the room of the card.
So..it is certainly a c.1890,s CDV..photo..!
If you only use this as a test..?
Or they simply always had a larger design then others,as some did. etc
They are :
Good Berners & Lant of Lancaster Pa.
Started in business in the 1860,s.
They were still in the [ 1880 ] Census on Lancaster city record's
According , to the Lancaster Historical County .
•••••••• That is an actual early surviving photo of one of them •••••••
ironically also taking a photo of another, Teenager photo
..about Honus Wagner's same age
Attached to the other photos shown above,
Hey, did you notice the price...! On the sign..?
And they did Census every 10 years or more..
So they were most likely still around up until the 1890,s as well.
Or could they have traveled to Pittsburgh area by train.
The trade of Photographer,..was not something that was hard heavy labor..as most trades were.
And any old photographers could easily do it until they died into their 80,s etc.
All you needed was the Camera,the chemicals,and the photo card stock.
And some skills, the demand for photos..NEVER..stopped..it was a good trade to be in.
Goggle or Bing..
Another CDV photo , Of the famous1869 Cinncinati Red Stockings Baseball team.
And you will clearly see them all wearing...suits..Not uniforms..!
Just , like Honus is wearing in this photo.
[ Small , CDV,s cardboard photos were made all over the Globe
for Decades since the1860,s and were Crazy popular & very inexpensive ]
************** The small exchange cardboard portraits were bought in large Quantities , by the dozens **********
******** They were all considered to be the, very World's 1st Social Currency ************
******* They were used as a early, Face book type photo given out as Social cards or Business cards ******
************* To Family,Friends,Business contacts & Yes, and even other, Baseball players & fans *********
**** So If you were a Baseball Player..well this could have easily be considered like your, Rookie card *******
••••••••• Providing , you had some sort of Baseball clothing on, that showed your trade •••••
*These photos became the very first low quantity,19th Century Baseball cards,
••• ..that were ever made and then were later traded •••
Back then,..Even though..you could ( Not make a set..! ) With a CDV,..Baseball player..collection...you still had,
Early Baseball cards by having ,any Images of Baseball players....in your hands...Period...!
Selling .. Big sets is a card dealers dream to make ( More money ) just like the advertisers on the backs because they all just wanted to sell ( More Products )..making ( More Money ) making you want to have a set too.! Buying more..
And they still do today..!
* Since they represent lower Quantities,this makes them all ( Extremely Rare Baseball card collectibles ) *
In order to understand, this Honus Wagner CDV card better.
You will want to perform a fun & *Real Forensic scientific facial test..? ,
And, here is how you can do it yourself.
Take any 1905 photo image of a 1909-11 Honus Wagner's T 206 Baseball card off of either Bing or Goggle..
Use your computers screen..or print it out.
Now place a sheet of paper directly over exactly half of the image of his face ,
But ..Not half of the card.
Line it up perfectly, straight with , Only his top button on his Jersey,,over his face.
It should be along the left side of the Large letter B in the word Pitts burg ..
It was missing the H on his Jersey at that time.
For the Pitts * burg Pirates.
Look close now..you will still see that only half of his NOSE..is now showing.
And if you notice his shoulders ,they are very TILTED..
The Reason why was to HIDE..his Trademark unsightly, *Bigger left ear which pointed upwards.!
So very little of that ear is shown.
Photographers all knew how to hide unsightly facial features and flaws , when taking portraits.
Using every angle and lighting and even makeup..etc.
As these were the , Good Old early day's before Photoshop.
Ok,..so..why do that..?
Now you will see more proof its him...?
With your own eyes & this very SIMPLE..test.
On this new Wagner discovery.
Now...Take my larger copy of the Holy Smokes c.1890 CDV photo Baseball card.
image of him and do the exact same thing.
Only this time ,place and line the paper straight up with the dead center of that,
( Big Sporting Striped Baseball bow tie ) he is wearing.
Again , align it straight with only his image..Not just the photo...just his head and body.
Only this time, you will then immediately notice , that his, [ Big nose will completely disappear..! ]
And only his right eye will now be showing., No nose.
Because, his head was angled MUCH more...Not his shoulder's as in the T206 card.
They were facing straight towards the camera.
Again,the reason was to hide that *Big Left ear.
Only this time..its all Gone..!
Because, his shoulders are Not..tilted..
He is facing the camera straight on.
Only his head is..turned more..to make that Big ear..vanish.!
By using only a sheet of paper and comparing those 2 photos..
You did it..!
And, That's what's called , a Home run..!
Doing this facial comparison details test..!
Revealing, how they ( Hid unsightly , Facial details ) using only simple Old Photographers tricks & skills,
By turning shoulders & turning heads in one direction , etc.
Also,.Consider this...cultural different lifestyle related fact,..
Because, not much has changed,.in 100 years..of..
No tobacco..allowed,..In the Holy smoke vs Cigarette Smokers hangouts.
••••••• Even in Pennsylvania today & over a 100 years later ,••••••••••
..............in some small towns,there are just as many Bars.
..............as there are Churches .
There in Pennsylvania today,especially in all of the Coal regions.
So far...this, New related research and more related fresh facts that , I'm uncovering is making this,
Baseball artifact *Better everyday..with only good ..comments..so far...over 2400 people,have now seen him..!
Although ,There have been a few Knuckleheads...that refuse to believe it, exist..or don't want or like
to read..the real details I clearly have given.
With Not one...person..emailing me..suggesting they do not think it is him..!
And I know,..women are better than men,..at judging faces.
Hey, Maybe ,I should raise the price..?
Here is another..So..I'm watching the 1992 movie , The Babe, with John Goodman playing, Babe Ruth.
He is out on the lake..during the summer on a date with his future pretty wife.
He leans over with a surprise kiss..telling her there is a Big bug hanging over her head.
She suddenly screams and pushes him away..and says..( Hey,..I'm Not one of those girls who ..Smoke..! )
•••••••• I have made many *Corrections & *Revisions on this Ebay listing as the facts are found and come in ••••••
So if you have already read it you may want to read it again as some more important additions were made.
I have learned,the moment any Negative, facts surface , during this or any artifact investigation your done..!
So far its all been Positive,as this holds true for any,
....Valuable Antique or Collectible item during research.
My focus is just presenting the facts as I know them,without straying into any baseless opinions.
The serious, responsibility of this,
Early Baseball Honus Wagner artifact requires a very lengthy detailed explanation & description.
Open to any Science, real facts & real experts...not novices.
In both old early 19th Century Photography photo collecting & culture & Early 1st Baseball cards & photos .
By then understanding just how they were both combined and all collected as it applies to this historic find.
••••••••••• [ " Holy Smokes Honus Wagner Baseball card photo " ] ••••••••••••
A Genuine Pennsylvania Honus Wagner 1st Baseball Rookie teenage cdv photo card c.1890.
All the other photos that were used in this eBay listing are just my enhanced copies..with some notes written on them.
Those other images of the card were,.. Not at all photo shopped,...
only enlarged & enhanced to show better details for evaluation, etc.
The actual old Original sepia light brown color tone photo artifact card is housed in an acid free heavy clear block protector, also inside a Ultra pro plastic sleeve,to prevent any sticking.
It is in Good Condition..!
And he is being...
Safely stored in a * Bank safety deposit box in Hershey Pa.
The photo card measures...apx. "4 1/4" long X "2 1/2" wide.
( Here is the Provenance of the photo..)
The very small thick photo card has an
Angel image holding an old Big lens & Box camera on its back.
As an advertisement for the 3 Photographers ,
in Blood red color ink.
Good Berners & Lant
45 N.Queen St.
Lancaster , Pa.
The Foursome had a Studio in downtown Lancaster pa.
They took and sold a lot of Stereographic photos.
But also traveled abroad to New York & Egypt etc.
Two of them were brothers
They started in business the 1860,s.
However,Im not sure what year they shut down..?
When they were located in downtown, Lancaster,Pa.
But the records Census and other dated photos show them still being around there in Lancaster during the • 1880,s •
All four of them could have gone separate ways still taking photos well..into the 1890,,s.
And would have all kept their old CDV ..card stock.
It is difficult to exactly date this photo exactly but not impossible.
I recently found yet another photographer using the same exat , ( Angel template design logo ) on the back of their photo.
So this was used by a printer for any photographer it appears.
Like most other photographers back then they set up temporary studios..in cities.
Some stayed and some moved on.
To make a Quick buck on the road,they followed the money and what people wanted to see.
So whenever they advertised lots of people came to them as this was the latest and most fashionable thing to do..
It was most likely taken by that Foursome of Lancaster Pa. Photographers
Who's name's were printed on the back of each card.
As this small advertisement and trade photo card depicts.
Again this is important..Since this was several of them together..they easily could have also split up and went separate ways..& in all directions.
Keeping and using all their pre printed card stock up until they were all gone.
Usually only one photographer was in business..its really rare to see 4 together.
Then there is always a very strong possibility another traveling Pa. photographer,
was using their pre printed photo card stock too,since they were literally printed and kept by the hundreds..
If you ever ran out..you were done making money..Period..!
So they always made sure they had tons,..in fact this is why lots of them,traveled with Horses & Big wagons
To haul not only their Big old Cameras & Tripods ,but their chemicals,
and heavy boxes & boxes of the much needed photo card stock as well.
They may have purchased and simply bought out their stock after they folded.?
Since nothing was thrown out back then, so if it could have been used, it was always somehow recycled..!
And if he was traveling the pre printed backs were not important.
only the profit was.
Especially if he had no permanent address or studio set up.
So ,the Choices, are either the Foursome did take the photo,.. or just one of them or another photographer altogether.?
So, exactly who • where • when • it was taken is still open ..?..and is still not as important as it being him.
Was it in Lancaster..or Pittsburgh area..or even somewhere else,as it easily could have been.
Since early Church & Factory Baseball teams traveled and played in and around Lancaster Pa. regularly.
And the Big,.. Lancaster train station, Depot was an important eastern hub for Philadelphia and New York
also to all points west including Pittsburgh.
And It is still there today.
Again the group of Old Lancaster Photographers.. ( Good ,Berners & Lant )
May have easily went separate ways & locations in Pa. ..?
Even then , they still would have each used up their old trio printed photo card stock up until they were all gone..!
And that could have taken years to sell.
It was rare to have a Trio,..because it was just usually just one photographer that took photos.
But also ,.there were lots of early Baseball teams who played in and around the
Great early Big time old Pittsburgh steel mills
Around ,Mansfield /Carnegie, Pa. area .too!
Where Honus and one of his older brothers "Butts" Wagner lived ,and played ball.
The origin of the old family album i found him in is not known.
It was full of old family photos with No names as usual.
* It was discovered right here in Pennsylvania.*
While, looking through the entire thick old photo album, I suddenly spotted him.
He is wearing the same ,..Old time kind of Sporting ( * Big Striped bow tie * ) ,
....that you can see some other old time Baseball players wearing.,but only in a suit.
Not a Baseball jersey.!..or uniform,that most of us are use to seeing.
If you find & compare other , Old time,1870,s & 1880,s & 1890,s single & team, early 1st Baseball photo cards.
Just like the ( Old Judges ) Baseball cards
.... & .....
And the Old ( Allen & Ginter ) Baseball cards
• Look at Old Judge 1888 King Kelly Baseball Card..or the Cap Anson Baseball card.
..they are both just only wearing suits..! •
You can bet Honus saw those very same cards or even owned some of those same early Baseball tobacco cards....
As a teenager,and among other players.
Even if he had to buy or trade for them..without buying any tobacco or cigarettes of course.!
So if you simply,..Google & Bing these Old time Baseball Card companies..
Then, you will see several other similar examples of them...that..
Match this Honus Wagner Photo card image,and style of clothing.
Because ,those photo cards were all readily collected & traded..way back then,,.this is how they survived to present day.
While some still consider them to be just photos and not Baseball cards,at all.
Like this one..
The truth is ,..these really were the ( First ones ) ...Period.!
Just because some card collectors, just did not like the fact that they were all in small or unlimited production.
So they were not ever cataloged or numbered , so no one knew exactly how many were actually made..?
And their goal was to only complete as set.
And,..They are still finding some that have never been seen before.!
And many Baseball players just looked like only ( Businessmen.) On some, and not Ballplayers at all .
Or having any familiar staged baseball like poses or game like positions or even wearing any uniforms at all.
Like most of the of Baseball cards that we are all now used to seeing and are all collected.
Once again....being printed in a unknown quantity,..like this, then made collecting a ( whole entire set )
of them just ,a impossible task to ever collect .
Because, no one knew how many there were , few if any records of them have ever been found.
Or were ever made available.
Since, they were all just like ,( Mini Billboards ) you only saw them quickly as you drove by in the game of life.
And collected any that came your way.
There were many, many other subjects of Colorful & Tobacco cards all easily available back then.
Clearly, it could be argued this was Honus Wagner's very 1st Rookie card..since it was most likely traded..
among other players, family, friends & Baseball fans after he or the team,.. bought a Quantity of them.
As,..he was not yet famous..and only a Rookie,just staring his profession as a Ball player.
And yet some would still argue that this is not, a Baseball card at all but just a photo.?
They need to do their homework better.!..
Back then,..Those early inexpensive , CDV small photo images acted as both a [ Photo & a Baseball card ] for any ball players.
Its because..they were used mostly for that early purpose when they only sometimes just wore only any kind of Baseball,
pieces of clothing or a holding just a bat, or wearing a cap,or a jersey,or sometimes even just holding a glove ,etc.
That single Baseball equipment,item you wore made you a Baseball player....Period..!
Pennsylvania was a, Mecca of the ,
Big new America of Industrialization back then.
From Philadelphia to Pittsburgh.
Full of Factories,Railroads,Mines,and Sawmills,Shipyards, & Bars
Where , Thousands of Factory worker's, Railroad men ,Miners, and Lumbermen and Boatmen all lived.
Using a countless number of all kinds of Tobacco products,which all were being daily consumed by them
Except for some of those "Church People" who abstained from any kind of Tobacco use,
But not for ; Health reasons, but for Religious reasons, just like Honus.
As any Cancer facts or Health issues of Tobacco use was Not yet Known..!
During those days,
The only Smoke,..Church people ,..breathed in was from all those , Giant Smokestacks all over Pa.
And the firewood & coal stoves everyone had and used not only to cook on,but to stay warm as well.
Or the ...Incense... that the Priests used inside of Churches..!
That was called...."Holy Smoke"
This is maybe where we get that old saying...
Or perhaps..it was from that Vatican Smokestack event..that was just rebuilt when the, New Pope was just chosen..?
So now do you get the Honus Wagner connection...?
From this his 1st St.Luke's church Baseball card ...to.... Tobacco cigarette cards... and then to his famous T 206 card.
•••••• The Bottom line is •••••
Again,..I will make this point..
This could easily have been one of several or a dozen or even more that he,
Absolutely gave away or traded.
This is Baseball card..!..and Not just a photo..!...
even though it was not mass produced..I'm sure an unknown amount were made.
And Absolutely not just Only one..!
Understanding all Baseball cards pre 1900 is very difficult. as they were developed and were collected,in time slowly.
But there is one , Clear & Common thread they all shared...its that, Baseball cards,..back then
all were selling some kind of ( Tobacco products..)..Period..!
Although,there were many other kinds of very colorful Tobacco like cards ,
bought and traded in all kinds of other products as well.
Most Ball players were the most public and key open users of all things ,
Tobacco related in those days.
Except for Honus Wagner..! Who not only , ( Did not smoke,.!) but tried to live a different kind of Christian life
Back then,most every other player, Drank, Cursed, Fought, Spit, & Smoked,..
Screamed & Yelled & Mocked at each other during ball games.
Politically correct dumbness did not yet exist..!
Done all Of course , in a friendly & sporting way ,
as this was all their normal custom & behavior, and was actually expected of them.,except for young Honus.,
because as much as he loved Baseball and other players he knew he could still play the game and play it good ,
yet not act like them, and still earn the respect of other players and fans as well.
So when young Honus saw those little ( Cardboard Wonders from the 1800,s ) and at a early teen age being all passed around among other Ballplayers ,
Well, you can bet he envisioned himself on one of them someday.
But for sure,..not one that touted the use of any Tobacco products.!
Although later in life he chewed..and allowed his image on a Cigar label.
As this was considered by him and others a ( Sinful vice & practise )
So a similar size Baseball photo card and even just by chance a Angel , on its back,was the perfect choice he or the Church made to have them done.
Hey, he then could even give one to his,Pastor, Priest,..or even the Pope..!
As no one would reject an Angel on the back of his image.. and he could even pass some out at Church..!
This...was his, Rookie Baseball card..both Technically,..and Socially.
••••• He created along with his older brother Al "Butts" Wagner and most likely the rest of the •••••
( Allegheny County Team )
Each player had their own Baseball cards made ,wearing the same Striped tie,they both were wearing,
when I saw them each in that old photo album at the Flea market.
Probably paid for by the same St.Lukes Church funds that paid each player for every game they played.
And this would have been the ( Absolute smallest size ) any photographer would have carried.
since they were not in the even smaller inserted, Tobacco card size business.
Let me explain it better,in yet another way,.. when we think of any 19th Century photos ,
( including old early photos of any Baseball players or any early Baseball team photos, )
That are now ever found.. we then think ,of them , like this is the only ( One photo) that there is..Period.,
or was ever taken..Period..!
Because simply most of the time It seems like.. only one or very few are ever found or sold .?
But ,nothing is further from the truth..you see..once they took your photo,
the profit for any old time photographers was,
in the ( Quantity they then would sell you) , and Not in just One..Photo..!
Especially a small one like this small size ( Honus Wagner Baseball Photo trading card is .)
They operated just like Sears photo studios still practise today..going for ,.Quantity..!
You see the only difference was they gave them to you immediately before you left the studio,
So they could get your money on the spot,..they all then carried around lots and lots of photo card sizes and stock.
and quickly made copies from a negative to sell you by the hand full ,
because the more they sold you the more profit they made.
This is the very reason why, These 3 Lancaster Pa. Photographers,..Good ,Berners & Lant ,..
Quickly later got into the ( old 3 D Stereo photo view business.)
They were all very Popular..and Hundreds & Hundreds were made and sold ,
And is the exact very reason why some still survived until today...( Quantity vs. Murphy's law )
And from the, early Baseball card collectible perspective,
you can bet they tried to sell as many single photos to any Baseball player , that sat for them,
to then give away or trade with all his friends,family members or other Baseball players.
These plain images sole purpose , was that they promoted just the Photographer & the Baseball player...
Not only Tobacco..!
Photographers wanted to also sell one to each & every member on a Baseball team photo,
Yet most of the time you only ever see ( Only one that somehow survived..? )
Like this Rare one..! ...Of Honus Wagner .as a Baseball teen Rookie..!
One of the Main reasons..old 1800,s photos were all lost in time,..
Was because unfortunately for all of us,
they rarely wrote on the backs or fronts of any of those old photos, as to who the people were ...?
And believe me I have looked at , Thousands of old photos ....!
Treasure hunting for famous people.
So, then many years later when they were all passed on ,
nobody else even knew or remembered who the hell, they were either..?
Then as a result they simply tossed them all in the dump ,and many more were all lost in water damage,and fires etc.
Then add over a Hundred 100 years of other possibilities of crazy things happening to stuff..?
And then..add ..Murphy's law ...well, now ...you see..are you..( Getting the picture..). ?
Hey, No ,...Pund intended..!
There is Absolutely,.No exaggeration..here to this ,"Only one known " Baseball card photo claim... I'm making.
Since ,.No one actually knew it was Honus Wagner if they even saw one.?
Because It was just like all the others that were not marked with any names.
In any other photo album or card collection you may find...unless you knew him personally,or were related to him.
You would have to had his image & card in your head..to recognize him..
Just like I did.
In order to find Gold,..you first have to know what it looks like.
And if they or anyone else did ,..Well there gone now.
So the chances any more, c.1890 [ Holy Smokes Honus Wagner cards ] like this one,
will be will ever be found again is about .. Zero..!
So, how that for a definition of what Rare is...?
Compared to ...50 to 75 to 100 known...? T 206.. "King cards"...!
Here is yet another early collectible photo example ..You can bet,..!
There was more than just one "Billy the kid"
photo tin types taken,
yet one just sold recently for ,
$ 2.3 million dollars.
With the recent news of a "Jumbo Wagner card " that just sold..for only,
$ 2.1 million dollars.
Well,..Sorry,.. Honus, it looks like " Billy " won this Buckfight..!
The reality is sometimes in the Real world of old photos & collectibles.
"The Only one known"..ends up becoming "The Only one ever found"...Period..!
If you do some serious research..on old Ball players, and you will see them wearing some type of similar type,of ties.
Some small.. some long ...and some ...Big & long ...& Big Sporting Bow ties..!
I also found some old Catholic Church team players that just wore only similar suit & ties for photos.
And..That is yet a other Clear connection to this photo..
And,..If you look close at the 1905 team photo of him,
He is one of the Only players wearing a much smaller "Bow tie".
The rest are wearing normal ties.
He would have to be around 16 years old or even younger..?
So you see,.. this would have been, his
[ Very first..Rookie Baseball card like photo..]
Since Baseball cards as.. We now know them.. were not even made yet.,
Or Mass produced..!
Until..The early 1900,s.
However ,..Early Player & Team Photos like this was the ( Very 1st baseball card collectible. )
And most players and teams were glad to have just a photo to collect or give away.
As photography was only 50 years old in America at that time..
Back in the 1890,s ,
There were No..Telephones..or..Cars...and mostly dirt roads.& .No ..Radio or TV. few magazines
..and .No Big time....MLB..or ESPN..etc.
As these were the "Horse & Buggy days"..just like the old western movies depict.
But riding the Trains...and Photography..now they were a Big deal..!
So to have a photo of yourself as a Baseball player.. or to give one ,
to another Ball player,
Or friend or family member was a Treasure..!
And this is, the perfect photo card size they would have been and were literally sold by the dozens.
To have and give out.
And quickly made once a negative was taken.
The moment I saw it I thought it was him, but only much younger than his 1909 -11 Tobacco famous card.
Remember he worked doing heavy hard work, at an early age..as a kid..
Before child labor laws.
He started work in the coal mines alongside his father and brother when he was 12.
So he matured much quicker and looked older and than teen kids do today.
Honus was born,Feb.24,1874.
One of 9 children.
All 5 of his brothers played early ,..Baseball.
These are the Only very real 3 possibilities this Baseball is card from.
• 1.When he played and started with his older brother Al on the ( Allegeny County league.)
and was only a Ball & Bat boy for this team but then later played on that same team too..
In 1889...Age15. ...It was called ..(* St. Luke's a Catholic church team *)
in 1890...Age 16.
...He replaced a hurt second baseman.,and played in the games.
• 2. When he played for the Carnegie Athletic team...1890.
• 3. Or..When he played for the ( Mansfield Indians )...in 1893...Age...19.
My choice..is the church team...St.Luke's.
But it would not matter much...if it was from either of these 2 teams..he still was a Rookie.
Back in those early days any money that was made came through betting and gambling on the games.
And any equipment you got you also got to keep.
Except when he finally got paid on the St. Lukes team. $3.To $5. Per game.!
As there was always lot of food and church & factory picnics from all the teams to go to.
So you got to eat much more & better than what was at home.
So your pay back then was only just sometimes,..and if you were lucky..!
Only,lots of Food, and drinks,..of all kinds.
Traveling expenses..Baseballs • Bats • Baseball Gloves• Shirts • Pants • Shoes • Hats & even , Big Bow ties ..!
However, again ,history records,
Because, The young teenage Honus Wagner ,actually got paid..$3. to $5. Per game ,
when he first started on St.Luke's team.
On the , Allegheny County League
He considered it a real job , But even if he could pay them, he would have, just to play,Baseball.
So that made him , Officially a PAID Baseball Player..and actual teen Rookie..!
Making this c.1890 actual artifact Baseball photo card i found , his actual Baseball Rookie card,.
even if it was not mass produced, as some may think it needed to be..but they are thinking in terms of 20th century collectibles.
Not their, 19th.Century.availability, or baseball collectible culture..back then it was the only photos that were traded,as Baseball cards....Period..with very few being mass produced.
To Honus and his brother Al..Wagner..
These images..wearing those( Big Bow ties..were Priceless..!)
And may soon prove to be..still today..
These were..Absolute 100% Proof they made it to, Big time baseball..by getting paid real money..
and they both saw the light at the end of the coal tunnel.."literally".
Early Baseball Player's were Rough & Tough and were all considered "Crude dudes who cursed,smoked & drank " etc.
Honus was considered a straight up and caring "Good guy" who most likely,by his recorded and known behavior, loved
God, Church, Kids, and seriously was Passionate ,for the game of Baseball, all in that order.
He attended a local church where he also went to school in the same building..until he was 12.
Then back down to the "Hell of the *Coal mines" he went...oh boy ,..sounds like fun..Huh..?
He also worked there,in the *Steel mills,and at his brothers *Barber shop.
•••••••• All in his teens.••••••••••
The following is a Fact...!
He once said Quote:
* "I had as much ( fun playing Baseball ) in my ( teen years,)
For the "Allegheny County team",
as I did in all of my 19 years in the Big leagues." *
••••• This photo has a [ Direct & Clear connection ] to those very words,
••••• Honus Wagner spoke those words himself..••••••
He also said:
••••••••• * "I lived for Baseball, from March to October." * •••••••••
So ,..now do you see or understand just what this Priceless, Baseball artifact of him clearly may represent...?
It has been said..Honus Wagner,became the [ Greatest Shortstop that ever lived.]
And could easily throw balls, play and run very fast ,slide, and catch balls ,
Hit them hard ,and play any position on the Baseball field.
When I showed ,others this Baseball Photo card,.they all seem to see him immediately just as I did and still do.!
What I do know and am certain of,
after comparing all the other known photos of him and all his ,
specific forensic features of his face.
And after considering as many ongoing ( facts ) as I could and still are gathering.
Seriously,..Who else can it be..?
And I am ( Not at all Deluded into just wanting it to be him..) being as Objective as I can be.
The more I look and compare all the known photos of him the more..I see him.
So after many many many hours of comparison,.. could this really be him..!
I really think so.
Or,..OK,..please,tell me just ( One feature that,..even suggests ..( Clearly ) ..that it is ( Not a early photo of him ) ...,!
Once again,..The other ( Absolute & Very important serious reason ) is that there was another exact kind , and size photo ,
of a guy a little older than him in that same old album, right next to him
[ Wearing the same exact size , pattern & kind of Sporting "Striped Bow Tie"..]
That I later found out could have easily been his older brother,
**** [ Albert "Butts" Wagner ] ****
who also played Baseball with him during those ,
1st very early Baseball playing years. and on St.Lukes team.
And who was responsible for getting him in the Bigger league games later.
Hey,..had I known that I would have certainly bought that one too..!
And that would have been it, 100% Certain Proof..!
So...for me at least knowing this specific real fact..is ..also
( Very ,..very strong evidence this could be a Genuine Honus Wagner baseball card )
I'm sure other facts and evidence will come in now that this photo has been presented,
By collectors and other objective Honus Wagner,Baseball Historians.
So , I will leave that up to you and any expert ,
Photo face forensic detectives...etc.
Who are out there..in eBay land etc.
To confirm this Honus Wagner Baseball collectible Treasure.
Perhaps this is a very good worthy artifact for that Great,.. new CNBC TV show ,
The "Treasure Detectives"...or someone like them.
Since it is now much easier to age someones..face & photo.,using photo shop specific software.
The,..Police and the FBI actually have that software capability when looking for missing children & people.
But... it is very difficult if not impossible ...!..for anyone to look backwards in time to evaluate facial identity .
When we were all younger, we all looked different and went through many facial changes.
Hey, just look at your own or anyone's kids photos and look at what you or they look like today.
And I know of No software that can do that can. Go backwards in time..!
[ Comparison photos is our only option ] .
Especially looking back 15 or more years in facial features to our youth.
So,..from being 31 years old as depicted in that Honus photo taken in 1905 ,
to this c.1890 when he would have been 16 yrs old...is Not an easy task..
But,I trust..the research that is still coming in...and the Provenance of those early Lancaster Pa. photographers.
And his brothers Al "Big Striped Bow Tie" photo that I failed to purchase also while looking in that old photo album.,
at the flea market...yes,that really did happen,..Dumb me..!
The actual 1905 photo that was used in the World famous 1909 -11 T 206 Tobacco card .is one of them.
Since it was actually, Only just used as an artists 1905 template for his 1909 -11
T 206 Tobacco card
A Stone lithographic rendition was made prior to printing later..
So ...what it really is ,..
is a ( Miniature similar portrait painting .)
And each and every one has a slight color difference.
They were all printed on small strips or sheets.
And each one had a mix of colors and paints..adhering to them.
Making each one in slight way a "one of a kind" baseball card.
So you see,
All those 50 to 75 to 100 .?... Known T 206 Honus Wagner Baseball cards.,
Are in fact are Not photos. At all...!...but actual little cardboard real ink paintings.
Again, its important for you to understand, each card is slightly different in color.
Most of the other ball players used were not even..made from known photos..but what the artists.
...saw or sketched in person...at the ballparks.
As not every player had photos of himself done..or else we would all see alot more early Baseball player photos.
You would be surprised..how many people don't know that simple fact.
Hey,and know one can even find many Heavy Stones they were all etched in either.
And,..just In case you don't know the back story..of what makes that 1909 -11 T 206 Tobacco card so valuable is ..
Honus Wagner ..did .."Not Smoke"..!
Kinda like , Abraham Lincoln who did not ever drink ..!
Yet ,both of them hung out with guys that did,..alot.
And both are forever, Great heros and American icons..
Although, later he chewed tobacco as a Baseball team coach.
Once again..here is the back story,
The Piedmont Tobacco company printed his image and many other Baseball players on some cards ,that were placed inside of very small 1909 -11 cigarette packs without his permission,never thinking that he or any player ,
would ever in fact object to their image being circulated in order to inspire children to start a collection of
inserted Baseball cards and then have them as a result selling more cigarettes.
He was not opposed to any other players doing it,
But he himself...wanted No part of it...and even did not want their money..!
Because, he just did
(Not want kids to have to buy them or promote them ,
in order to get his card and encourage them to also smoke ..! )
He did not want to set a , Bad example as kids looked up to him and other early Baseball players as heros.
Perhaps, his Christian upbringing and ethics were much more important than any money he could gain by having his image sold to Tobacco Companies.
As Tobacco back then,was considered a vice and a Sinful habit..
and had (Nothing..! to do with health or cancer reasons which was not yet known )
If you smoked,..you were an open sinner..and hung out,with others that do to.
So what's so special is that this photo..may now also represent,
Honus Wagner's early faith & church life.
He used to even greet all the kids & fans and sign autographs after games.
Even, after a long summer double header wearing a hot woolen Baseball Jersey,
When he played for the Pittsburgh Pirates.
He always made time for the kids.
His commitment to Baseball and the love for kids,friends and family was ( Saint like..! )
Although he never had any sons himself..to follow him in the Baseball tradition,
He still had..3 wonderful daughter's.
When,comparing him to some players today..
Who are just in love with,
Themselves,Steroids,Statistics,and Bigger & Bigger Zillion dollar contracts.
Even fans now have a hard time buying game tickets,in today's economy.
And, also cant even afford to take along their kids to the Ball park.
Honus..shines like a Baseball star he actually was.
He objected the Tobacco companies, from using his image so much,that he threatened to even sue them..
So they pulled them all from printing..and circulation.
No one actually knows if they,
Returned the bulk of the cards to him..?
Or if they then destroyed all of them..?
But what is now known .
and what some say,..is that there are only about 50 to 75 to 100 cards known to exist..?
That actually made it out in some packs of cigarettes that have been found.
The catch is without his card you cannot complete a very large T 206 Baseball card set.
Its called "The Monster".
But, he always later agreed to any advertising his old Baseball player image having contracts on several ,
Candy , Bread , Gum, Carmels, Cocoa or other Products but ..
Never..Never..Never...any CigaretteTobacco cards..!
****There are No photos , of him in his teens or his early Baseball rookie days that are known to exist..! ****
Amazingly recording what he looked like when he first started playing Baseball..123 years ago..!
A true Baseball Legend Historic Authentic document.
This....c.1890 CDV card...has..
( **** The Same exact facial expression ****)..MATCHES ..!
That same look that is on his face , as is on his famous later ,
••••••••• 1909-11 T 206 Tobacco Card image..! •••••••
And that's a very Big deal....!...More Confirmation it maybe him..!
So...now,..what could he actually be thinking about, maybe just being a very happy, proud & locally respected,
....early Baseball player...?
And is that not the
**** ( Same exact subtle, "Mona Lisa smile" ) **** on his face in this c.1890 photo ..?
•••••• Matching ••••••
His,.. World..famous T 206 1909-11 Tobacco card... which just happens...to be also called the ,
••••••••••• "Mona Lisa of Baseball cards" ••••••••••••••
So you see,.once again, here are some more,
[ *Very strong specific details * ]
That clearly,..support this older photo actually being being of him...!
And, Seriously,..what are the odds of that happening..?
and how could this,
* New , Honus Wagner Baseball photo card,. just be all a coincidence..?
For sure,..you know he played...Baseball every moment he could,.in all of his teen playing years.
And you can be Absolutely certain too....he didn't stay in the house all day every day and play video games.
Sadly,..Like most kids do today.
Honus Wagner also loved to hunt & fish.
Forensic photo Sciences called Biometrics, now exist.
And they are always getting better every day.
And are not reliant on anyone's opinion.,and are 100% objective.
Using millions of computer comparison scientific evaluations,
for 100% positive identification results.
Its called **** "Facial Recognition"..****;
and is now a ( Crazy good..law enforcement..new.. Super Hi Tech..photography tool. )
Used by Homeland security..all branches of ..The Military...and the CIA...etc.
Once again,..I'm hoping someone out there..?
will submit this Honus Wagner photo ..to that..new Technology.
To finally prove & Authenticate 100% it is in fact him.
As for his early Pa. Baseball local career history..do the research.
Take note..there are none, not one..!
That are known of him in his photo history, at around the the age..of 16.
Or in any of his Teens..!
His first photo, just as a Baby,..then later another he appears to be around 10 years old.
Skipping all of his teen years..to a 21 years old image of him I could find.
If you look at all his photos of him ,they don't exactly look alike.
Due,.. to the kinds of cameras,
many positions, movement, lighting,the sun and time it was taken ,many variables etc..
Then the distance of the camera has a Big role in how any photo will turn out.
Important to note:
The1909 image on the T 206 card is a,
Artist rendition of his 1905 real photo
And it is possible his nose could have been easily broken later..from a baseball hit after this photo.
Or got hit in the nose..from another player in a fight..?
Or because he played Shortstop,where balls come at you fast & hard..
if he missed only once.,he could easily had his nose broken.
And most every ones noses and ears do get even bigger with age.
Especially ,6 years later,or 5 years younger.
As his other photos,tell us.
The look and shape of his head, face, eyes, lips,, ears,..etc..all look very similar..!
Then there is that unmistakable Honus Wagner,..
Big ,.Chin & Big nose features..!
Seriously,how could this be just a "Look alike , another person"..?
Hey,ok..how many people look like that..?
Although it can be possible..?
Perhaps this photographer saw his *Best profile in the right angle he was facing, in this early c.1890,s photo.
And then once again another photographer saw the same exact * Best right angle profile that was taken in 1905.
As most photographers all had some early learned skills after taking thousands of photos.
In,..finding the "Best pose" or "Best side" of a persons face..etc.
They also found ways or poses to ( Hide any facial features ) that were not desirable or stuck out ,
Like that ( larger left ear) that Honus appears to have had.
That's why..he turned his head for this photo...!
Did you do the test....?
Hey,..Even his early hair style ,part, and color MATCHES in several other photos of him.
I'm certain he would of also wanted a photo of himself..early in his fresh new being paid, Baseball life.
Anything was better than the life in the dangerous & dirty "Coal mines".
That's right hundreds kids worked in the coal mines back then,and a lot of them died painfully there too!
He loved Baseball..and even loved more actually being able to later get paid for doing something he loved.
•••• All the photos i used and shown here in my collage are for research & comparison purposes only.
Only the actual photo is for sale..not my research & comparison photos ,etc.
You can find some ,
Great Honus Wagner Bio books and photos on Amazon.com
And if you Google and Bing..under * Images
Honus Wagner..there are photos etc. of him to be seen
I'm not out to deceive anyone,..I really hope it is him..
It will make an important & valuable piece of his Baseball history forever..!
Again,.It has been said, there are apx.50 to 75 to 100 ..? copies of that Famous ..1909-11 T206 Tobacco cards and are known to exist...I wish somebody knew the exact number..?
And of those that have been found , they have all been graded in various conditions.
To collectors the single , Most important Specific fact is the Condition of each card ..!
And is also the key factor of evaluation in determining its value.
Is this his ..
"Only 1st & Known teen Baseball team c.1890 photo"
And even more Important ..could it be..a Spectacular.. "One of a kind" document of..
( Of his earliest fun Pa. hometown & Baseball..playing days ) ..in his own words..like I believe that it is.
That then later seriously turned into a lifelong and very successful career for him with the Pittsburgh Pirates.
Could it be,that this photo represents,
The young teen , Baseball's 1st Pilgrim & No Tobacco Puritan, ... Honus Wagner, giving us all ,
a real and personal glimpse of his,
clearly ethical Christian Heart, character & history.
All from those early, Baseball St.Lukes church team playing days when he first got PAID..!
When he not only loved, Baseball but especially young fans & people too!
Making it much more than just a ,Baseball collectible ?
Also maybe a ..( Message of Hope & Love to us all ),.. from one of,.. Baseballs..Greatest hero's
••••••••• ( In Life ..its Not just winning the game that counts,.. but ,..How you play it.! ) ••••••••
Making this .."Holy Smoke's Honus Wagner 1st Baseball photo card " , maybe soon become to be the most talked about
Early c.1890,s , Baseball collectibles on the Planet...?
If you consider,..knowing his personal history, don't you think it was much more than him just saying,
No to tobacco.!
Surely,.. It was all about caring for kids and others more than yourself..
And setting a Good example..!
Sounds,.. just like something ,..Jesus : once said.
And you can be sure if there is ..Baseball in Heaven..?
"St. Honus ..will be playing shortstop."
And St. Luke... will be pitching...!
And, i think even Honus himself ,would say you can have all those ,
Smokey old,.. Tobacco cards..
But....This ones mine...!
However, it can now be yours.
••••••• only 123 years later..! ••••••
Please email me,any ,Questions,Comments or Concerns .
Accepting all credit cards,or checks.
shipping worldwide,insurance will be included.
Pa. Residents add 6% to agreed price.
••••••• Once your payment clears...it can and will be sent Fully Insured ••••••••
Here is a ••••••••• No Problem & No Hassle & No Worries Guarantee ..! •••••••
• Besides the additional 14 day money back eBay Guarantee..! •
Suggestion & Solution to Authentication if you wish..below..!
He maybe viewed or picked up in person at the Bank here in Hershey.
After payment clears.
By you or your agent...
Or if ( you ) wish to inspect it first in person ...and then send it out to PSA..or wherever..?.to get it Authenticated..
At your cost..and risk..including the Insurance to cover that Price..that could be done as well.
We then have to find a mail service to pick it up at the bank..?
Like Fed ex..or Ups..?
And, then It will also be mailed back to the Bank in Hershey. Or post office,to be signed for.
•••••Your money will NOT,.. be spent but Held in Escrow..by either the bank,
or a independent 3 rd safe & legal party.
There are no intentions of any deceptions concerning the sale of this artifact....Period..!
Until it returns..Authenticated.
Then you can take him home.
Or get your check back..!
Once again , As far any the "Facial Recognition"...Comparison Technology submissions..testing etc.
My own & much larger & Blown up...Version of "The Holy Smoke's Honus Wagner " card.
It is much easier to see & use for any facial details..or any scientific forensic evaluations.
If any one of you view this photo..and can give me any feedback..or information that suggest it is,
Not him as a teen
..please email me..! With your *valid reason why..!
There has been over [ 4000 ] Ebay lookers...and ..Not one person ,
Has sent me any ( Intelligent emails ) to me suggesting that they think it is ..Not him. With any of their reasons..!
So that speaks for itself..!
Im making this point again,..because its the key..to what's next..Based on any kind of Specific,..Factual or Scientific reasons...or any results of any Computer testing they may have did at home..?
on his,..Very Clear blown up enhanced image...i provided for an easy at home evaluation & identifications purposes, etc.
•••••• However,if anyone can PROVE..it is Not him with any valid objective reason...I will end..the sale..!
••••••••• Just like a bottom of the 9 th inning 3 rd Out •••••••••
••••••••••••• Game over..! •••••••
It can be easily scanned...right off this listing...so there really is ( No risk in shipment )
for any of those kinds of tests to be done.
If,.You have done any tests ..using any programs..please let me know.
Especially if you plan on buying it...or picking it up.
Or,..If you can think of any better ways or have your own terms..?..Just ask..!
None of your funds will be spent once payment clears..
Except for shipping and insurance,etc. which are non refundable at your cost.
Until you have the Proof..you need..
Best to have the tests done prior to release & purchase..!
Remember..Bio metric Confirmation testing etc. 1st..is much More Important..
This is something..Baseball card people..seem to have a hard time understanding...?
Because its ,. Never been done before on any Baseball card in history.
Balance of Payment will be held for 14 days.
Should you return it..?..undamaged.
Whatever else we decide..as long as its legal & honest..I'll agree to it.
EBay will not bill me if a No sale..! occurs.
Should this Not sell on eBay, i will be then looking on my own, to have the facial comparison tests done somewhere.?
Just using my blown up image,..keeping the actual & Original card still safe in the Bank safety deposit box.
One last thing... I too am a brother of faith like, Honus was...and we have the same,
Captain , [ Jesus ] on our team,
So...in ( No way ..).ever...!
Will I take anyone's money ..Unless we both can ( Confirm ) this some how..?
As a Rare Baseball Artifact ,..that is in fact a 100% real Honus Wagner collectible...Confirmed. & Authenticated...!
****** Holy Smokes,Play ball....!
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